New Wine Interviews Ern Baxter about Brother Branham

"We focus on the present Truth – what Jesus is doing now. . ."
ISSN 1442-8660

Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, saints of God; it is always a great encouragement to have your company.

We have a surprise for you, our main article is an interview with the late Brother Ern Baxter who was Brother Branham's campaign manager for several years prior to the close of the Laodicean Church Age. This interview was published in New Wine Magazine just before I became a Christian. I was involved in the Charismatic Movement, Assemblies of God (so-called), and the Anglican Church seeking what Peter called "the present Truth" without knowing quite what to look for. By the grace of God two Brothers introduced me to the ministry of William Branham. I began testing his understanding which differed from denominational traditions but was in perfect accord with the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

I pray you will find this reminiscence of the healing revival after World War II easy and edifying reading; it describes Brother Branham's evangelistic ministry before men "turned from truth unto fables" and the churches, all churches, apostatised and know it not. Then the Lord gave Brother Branham his prophetic commission described in Isaiah 61:2b, Malachi 4:5, 6b, Matthew 17:11, 25:6, Revelation 3:17 and 10:7.

Please do not fail to study our current News items because they declare scripture coming to pass and show us the lateness of the hour. And share this Newsletter with your friends and loved ones.

This Newsletter serves those of like precious faith. Whoever will receive the truth is welcome to feed their soul from the waters of the River of Life. Everything here presented should be confirmed personally in your own Bible.

US withdraws from INF Treaty, Torpedoing Global Arms-Control Structure

September 2, 2019 � On Thursday, August 22, 2019, Russia and China called a UN Security Council meeting to address the perils resulting from the US withdrawal from the INF treaty. The High Representative on Disarmament Affairs, Ms. Izumi Nakamitsu noted: "The recent collapse of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty removed one of the few constraints on the development and deployment of destabilizing and dangerous classes of missiles."

Dmitri Polyanskiy, Deputy Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation stated: "On August 2, a very sad and important event took place�the United States withdrew from the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty . . . The INF Treaty was crucial for international d�tente . . . With time it became increasingly clear that the Treaty, like other disarmament and arms-control agreements, had become inconvenient for our American partners, who were convinced of their exceptionalism and became increasingly determined to impose their inequitable unilateral schemes of international relations on others . . . today it is not our American partners that we are primarily addressing, because their views are clear. But we are very surprised by the stubborn position that is being adopted by our European colleagues . . . Are they aware that, because of the geopolitical ambitions of the United States, we are all just one step away from an uncontrolled, unregulated arms race? . . . according to publically available data, the US military budget is about $700 billion, while the budget of NATO amounts to $1.4 trillion. These are just approximate figures. For reference, the military budget of Russia, which is allegedly a threat to us all, is about $60 billion, that is, more than 20 times lower than that of NATO . . . Just think about how much we could have done if the money that our Western colleagues have been allocating for military purposes had been spent to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals and help less developed and developing countries."

There is a sense of d�j� vu about this development of a new arms race, which seems to be an inexorable component of capitalist economies. Several years ago both China and Russia were alarmed by the US threat to deploy THAAD (Terminal High Altitude Area Defense) missiles in the Republic of Korea. THAAD posed an existential threat to both Russia and China. On August 22, 2019 Chinese Ambassador Zhang Jun described the current threat resulting from the US withdrawal from the INF treaty in terms clearly reminiscent of the dangers and alarm expressed by Russia and China regarding THAAD:

Ambassador Zhang: "withdrawal from the INF treaty is another negative act in the pursuit of unilateralism and the shirking of international obligations by the United States. Its true intention is to render the Treaty no longer binding and seek a unilateral, absolute military advantage. China has always pursued a national defense policy that is defensive in nature. China's land-based intermediate-range missiles are all deployed within Chinese territory. They are for defence purposes only and pose no threat to any other country. China firmly opposes the United States attempts to deploy land-based intermediate-range missiles in the Asia-Pacific region and hopes that the United States will exercise restraint and be rational in that regard."

The US seems to have an irresistible attraction to the Asia-Pacific region (among others regions, including Latin America) and an uncontrollable desire to place missiles on the territory of that region, which would facilitate dominance over the entire area, its peoples, and its resources. Decision seems to remain with Japan and the Republic of Korea, theoretically staunch allies of the US and NATO, as to whether or not to permit their territories to host placement of these missiles, which contain the potential to exterminate all living creatures in that area of the world�and, inevitably, beyond. This is the among the greatest of all threats to international peace and security. Full story: globalresearch.ca

Comment: The United States is the image of the beast (Revelation 13:11-18).

Is the Fed preparing to topple US Dollar?

September 2, 2019 � Unusual remarks and actions by the outgoing head of the Bank of England and other central banking insiders strongly suggest that there is a very ugly scenario in the works to end the role of the US dollar as world reserve currency . . . this would involve that the Fed deliberately triggers a dramatic economic depression . . . head of the . . . Bank of England, Mark Carney, delivered a remarkable speech at the recent annual meeting of central bankers and finance elites at Jackson Hole Wyoming on August 23 . . . a clear roadmap where the powers that control world central banking would like to take us. The world reserve role of the US dollar must end . . . replaced by some form of IMF SDRs as basis for a multi-currency reserve . . . ultimately be based on digital money. . . completely controlled by central bank authorities and the IMF . . . elimination of all cash in favour of digital money where every cent we spend can be monitored by the state. This cashless society would also set the stage for the next great financial crisis and the confiscation by governments of ordinary citizens' bank deposits under new "bank bail-in" laws now on the books since 2014 in every major industrial country including the EU and USA . . . lead to the end of the dominant role of the US dollar . . . [and] American power in the world, . . . Is this in fact what the Federal Reserve is quietly planning with its money policies? . . .

The Fed could easily tip the US into crisis. The debt levels of the US economy are at record high for private households, Federal government, and US corporate debt . . . The rising stocks are not a sign of economic health but of a dangerous speculative bubble vulnerable to collapse.

Were the Fed now to resume rate rises and continue its less-publicized Quantitative Tightening into 2020, a domino-style series of debt defaults, corporate bankruptcies, home mortgage foreclosures, default on car loans and student loans could quickly make a second Trump Presidency in 2020 more than doubtful . . . also trigger collapse in major emerging market countries who have borrowed hundreds of billions denominated in US dollars, including Chinese state companies, Turkey, Argentina, Brazil to name a few. EU banks from Italy to Germany to France would fail.

Is a new Fed intervention to raise rates and tighten credit the event the deliberate central bank rupturing of this inflated bubble using the excuse of the Trump danger to the world economy�that Carney has in mind when he says, "transition to a new global reserve currency may not proceed smoothly"? . . . coming months will tell . . . Full story: globalresearch.ca

Comment: All according to prophecy.

ISIS R Us. US-NATO support ISIS and Al Qaeda Globally

September 4, 2019 � "I anonymously received explosive documents from the Serbian state-owned arms companies Krusik and Jugoimport SDPR, including e-mails, internal memos, contracts, photos, delivery schedules, and packing lists with lot numbers of weapons and their buyers. Among the leaked documents I also received scanned passports of arms dealers and government officials from the US, Saudi Arabia and UAE. They have been involved in the trafficking of at least 3 million pieces of Serbian weapons (mortar shells and rockets) to Yemen and Syria in the last three years.

Tracking the lot number of these Serbian weapons I was able to identify and trace mortar shells in the hands of Islamic State terrorists in Yemen back to their buyer�the US Government. These documents expose the biggest lie in the US foreign policy�officially fighting terrorism while secretly supporting it." Whereas Western foreign policy is on the wrong side of international law, humanity, morality, and civilization itself, the "Axis of Resistance" holds the higher ground. Whereas the West and its allies vilify and oppose Hezbollah, for example, evidence demonstrates that instead of slaughtering Christians in Syria, as the West's ISIS/al Qaeda proxies do, Hezbollah protects them . . . Full story: globalresearch.ca, youtu.be

Israeli Border Provocation moves Plan for Regional War Forward

September 2, 2019 � Israel has bombed both Syria and Iraq with impunity. Syria, over the last couple of years, has endured attacks by Israel hundreds of times. In July, the IDF, using US-produced F-35i stealth fighter jets, attacked targets inside Iraq . . . Netanyahu, however, is not defending the Israeli people from Hezbollah and "radical Islam led by Iran," but rather ensuring there will be a large war that puts millions of civilians in the crosshairs, as it did during the failed invasion of Lebanon in 2006. If the war escalates, Netanyahu will use it to call for unity during Israel's upcoming elections . . .

Israel is upping its game to force Trump to fully back its plan to invade southern Lebanon, punish the Lebanese people for supporting Hezbollah, continue aggression against Syria and Iraq, and go after the big kahuna, Iran. This agenda cannot be accomplished without the United States and its military.

Trump is probably the most pro-Israel president in US history. His blessing for the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of thousands of Palestinians through annexation�Netanyahu now says Israel will annex the West Bank in addition to stolen property in the Golan Heights�as well as moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, is not considered pro-Israel enough by Likud and the fanatical settlers who routinely terrorize and kill Palestinians. Nothing short of total war will suffice�and Bibi wants that to happen before the Israeli elections later this month. Full story: globalresearch.ca

Comment: If Netanyahu loses the election he will have to go to court and answer for some of his crimes. Well-informed sources indicate that:

"Israel deserted their military barracks and all positions along the Lebanese borders for fear of being bombed by Hezbollah's rockets, notably the Burkan (Volcano) that can carry over 1,000 kg of explosive and cause a large number of casualties" (ejmagnier.com).

US Sanctions Threats won't stop Russia-Africa Security Cooperation

September 3, 2019 � Upon solidifying its influence in the military and economic spheres, Russia can then more easily expand its sway into the political one as well, but it must be remembered that this entire strategy is dependent on its initial military phase which seeks to capitalize on the continental chaos unleashed by the West's Hybrid Wars in Africa. Aware of this, the US is seeking to strike straight at the source of Russia's renewed African influence by threatening its partners with sanctions if they continue to buy military equipment from Moscow, but as Zakharova said, these supplies "are a prerequisite for maintaining their national security and sovereignty," which is why the American scheme won't succeed. Nevertheless, it's a clever one because targeted sanctions against military officials in Russia's African partners could exacerbate "deep state" divisions by making some of these supposedly corrupt individuals have to choose between their national and personal interests, which sometimes leads to them leaning towards the latter. In the event that they're true patriots, then the US might broaden its sanctions (whether threatened or promulgated) to include specific sectors or even the national economy as a whole, which would be intended to eventually spark Colour Revolutions within those countries.

All responsible stakeholders in any country realize that economic development can only be maintained if security is guaranteed, hence Zakharova's confidence that Russia's African partners "have no intention to give up cooperation with [Moscow] in this field." The reality is that few African countries trust the US and France after decades of their neo-colonial practices across the continent, and some of them are also suspicious of China's strategic intentions too as a result of the relative successes made in recent years throughout the course of America's anti-BRI infowar. This state of affairs naturally inclines them to gravitate towards Russia as a "third way" between the West and China, exactly as Valdai Club programme director Oleg Barabanov foresaw would happen when he proposed that his country become the leader of a new Non-Aligned Movement (Neo-NAM) in his policy paper earlier this year about "China's Road to Global Leadership: Prospects and Challenges for Russia." Given this prevailing dynamic as well as the irreplaceable role Russia is poised to play in ensuring Africa's security and therefore consequent development, the upcoming first-ever Russia-Africa Summit in Sochi next month will certainly solidify Moscow's influence there and prove that Washington's plans have failed. Full story: globalresearch.ca

University Study concludes: Fire did not bring down Building 7 on 9/11

September 3, 2019 � Today, we at Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth are pleased to partner with the University of Alaska Fairbanks (UAF) in releasing the draft report of a four-year computer modelling study of WTC 7's collapse conducted by researchers in the university's Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering. The UAF WTC 7 report concludes that the collapse of WTC 7 on 9/11 was caused not by fire but rather by the near-simultaneous failure of every column in the building. Full story: ae911truth.org

'Regime Change in the UK': Anti-parliamentary Coup � Internationally Organised

August 30, 2019 � Around the world, coups are normally international events. Short of war they have been a preferred mechanism to achieve what has become known as 'regime change.' And the last time there was a successful coup in this country was in 1688, that too was an international affair, with Mary and William of Orange being installed as a monarchy. That was a coup by parliament against an over-bearing monarchy . . . We are living through a coup against parliament by a minority of parliamentarians . . . to impose their will against the majority of elected representatives and against the will of the public . . . But the key beneficiary of this project is Donald Trump and the interests he represents, the project has his full backing . . . For Trump, No Deal is imperative . . . we will not be entering a new golden age of peace and prosperity as a subordinate state to Trump's MAGA project . . . Full story: opendemocracy.net

New Wine Interviews Ern Baxter about Brother Branham

New Wine Magazine � December 1978 (fifteen years after Christ's second of (Gk.) parousia Coming)

During the years immediately after World War II, the United States and the world in general witnessed a widespread move of God that came to be known as the "healing revival," in which the ministries of such men as William Branham, Oral Roberts, Gordon Lindsay and T. L. Osborn became prominent.

When the healing revival broke out, Ern Baxter was pastoring a large evangelical church in western Canada. At William Branham's invitation, he travelled extensively with the Branham team, although he maintained his position at his home church.

At a time when denominational divisions were clearly defined along strict theological lines, Ern was not actually a Pentecostal minister. However, he was not a traditional evangelical either because he had been baptized in the Holy Spirit. In Ern's own words, "I was a kind of pre-charismatic charismatic."

Significant historical events preceded the present charismatic renewal. Most people are unaware of those events. In this interview, Ern describes the spiritual climate of those days. From an insider's viewpoint he describes the healing revival. As a man with an appreciation of history he reveals the lessons we in the charismatic renewal today can learn from the experiences of that movement.

Question: In his book All Things are Possible, which is a historical look at the healing and charismatic revivals in modern America, David Harrell makes this statement: "Few learned observers recognized the significance of the huge healing campaigns of the 1950's�not many of those enthralled by the charismatic movement today understand its origins." Can you tell us what kind of religious "climate" there was in the post-World War II years, and what circumstances made the era of the healing revivals possible?

Answer: The atmosphere and religious "climate" at that time was one of low spirituality. All supernatural happenings around the world were reported on as being quite significant.

In my opinion, the whole supernatural element in Pentecostalism generally was very low. There were pockets of blessing, but there was no widespread revival. One of the reasons for the impact which the healings accompanying the healing movement made, was that there had not been a wave of healings for a long time. In 1933 at a big Pentecostal conference, much of the delegates' time was spent discussing reasons why people weren't getting the baptism in the Holy Spirit anymore and the lack, of healings and conversions. Consequently, I would have to say that the spiritual climate was very low. This provided a backdrop, then, for the advent of the healing revival.

When William Branham [(1909 � 1965), an ordained Baptist minister who had a significant international healing ministry from May 1947 until around 1955] came on the scene, he was the only one who had a genuine healing ministry at that time. Even the Jeffreys brothers from Great Britain had passed the peak of their ministry which was in the late 1930's.

So the "religious" climate was one in which the supernatural had seemed to cease. Then when Branham broke in on the scene with the quality of supernaturalism he demonstrated, it was newsworthy because of its relative novelty.

Question: What led up to your joining his team? Did he ask you, or did you just have contact with him and then a relationship developed?

Answer: I was going on a vacation and read about him in Time Magazine on the airplane. I was on my way with my wife to Winnipeg, Canada, to visit friends there. During dinner with them, my host, a prominent businessman in Winnipeg, said, "There's an unusual minister down at Zion Church. His name is William Branham."

I said, "I just read about him in the airplane." So we decided to attend. After dinner, we left for the meeting and arrived around nine o'clock at this rather large church, (I think it seated about two thousand). The sight I saw was, for those days, very impressive. There was a crowd of people outside, listening to Branham by loudspeakers because they couldn't get in. I stood there in the darkness and listened to him.

What I heard was unique, unusual! I had never heard anything like it before. It was simple and direct. He was talking about demons and God's power to heal. Though it was basic, there was something very attractive about it.

As I stood in the darkness, I said to my host, "I have a sense that I am going to have something to do with this man." We went on home and made no attempt to contact him. Shortly after I returned to Vancouver. Later, Branham came to Calgary, Alberta. By then, of course, his reputation was well known, and I decided to take some of my people to Calgary.

At that time Branham had one or two men travelling with him, whose responsibility centred in arranging the meetings. Branham was doing the bulk of the ministry. He would pray for several thousand people each night. Because his load was so heavy, other ministers who could handle large crowds were invited to share the afternoon meetings. Because I was known in Calgary, I was invited to take one afternoon service. I recall the theme I spoke on: "This is the day that the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." I pointed out that this was the gospel day and the day in which we should be enjoying all the blessings of God's grace. Presumably, the men that heard me took word back to him.

After staying for two or three days, I went back home, again making no attempt to contact Branham personally. When I arrived back in Vancouver, a number of ministers came together and said, "We must bring William Branham here." I was asked to lead the meetings, which I did.

Later, Branham asked to see me personally. He said that he had been in prayer and the Angel of the Lord had spoken to him and told him that I was to be his companion in ministry. He invited me to join him.

At the time, I was pastor of a large church, and obtained leave from them, joining Branham in Ashland, Oregon. I started to travel with him as often as I could be away from my church. One year I was away eight months.

When he would speak, especially in those early days, he would say some things that were terribly provocative. To me, unnecessarily so. So when we talked together, we agreed that apart from his giving testimonies and relating his life story, I would do all of the speaking, and he would do all of the ministering to the sick. That was the way it was when we were together [(II Timothy 3:1 � 4:5)].

I was with Branham from 1947 until I had to leave him in about 1953 or 1954. F. F. Bosworth joined up later than I did and shared in some of the meetings.

Question: Could you briefly describe Branham's ministry and some of its high points? What caused him to break in on the national scene?

Answer: Well, Branham had a tremendous word of knowledge. Before praying for a person, he would give accurate details concerning the person's ailments, and also details of their lives�their home town, activities, actions�even way back in their childhood. Branham never once made a mistake with the word of knowledge in all the years I was with him. That covers, in my case, thousands of instances.

[ags: Jesus promised the Messianic sign of Hebrews 4:12 would be displayed at the time of Christ's second or (Gk.) 'parousia' Coming � Luke 17:28-30 is the antitype of Genesis 18:1-15].

Branham's use of the word of knowledge actually started out as a phenomenon in his hand. He would take the hand of the person in his. Immediately at the base of his thumb, in the thick part of his hand, there would be a specific manifestation according to the sickness or need. From seeing the phenomenon so often, I began to pick up what these were and became adept at reading them. Tuberculosis was a light pink flush. Cancer was an angry red appearance in which the ball of his thumb just seemed to surge like a wave.

Question: It was actually visible?

Answer: Yes, you could see it. Then this gave way to the straight oral word where he would give accurate details concerning the person. He never missed, and this made a tremendous impact.

Branham also probably introduced deliverance in its form at that time. He cast out spirits. This made the large congregations very sensitive to the presence of demonic powers. There was a lot of primitiveness about it. For instance, he would insist the audience bow their heads during exorcism lest the spirits get in another person! The whole ministry was so new and so powerful that, when I met him in 1947, his mail was enormous.

Many of the subsequent healers received their initiative from him. He was really the fountainhead of the healing revival of the 50's and 60's. Many of the men who began to hold healing meetings subsequent to Branham's had short-lived ministries. Many of them couldn't handle what the ministry and its consequent recognition did to them personally.

The prominence and visibility it created was unbelievable. Many people did not know healing or anything supernatural existed. The ministry reached out and touched people in the denominations. It was very effective that way. People, of course, care about their bodies, so they came�some hundreds and others thousands of miles. It was hard to handle the adulation and the praise. It was almost like Barnabas and Paul's experience when they were considered "gods from heaven."

Question: Can you recount some of the most memorable times with him and some of the events you vividly remember from your time together with him?

Answer: Well, to try to remember or to pick out a few outstanding supernatural occurrences with Branham is somewhat difficult because it was just a parade of the supernatural. On one occasion, we were down in the southern states, in a big auditorium meeting. The first or second night there, Brother Branham came to a certain man in the healing line. He looked at him and said, "Sir, I see you have come into this line tonight to trick me. In fact, I see you last night in a room sitting around a table with four other ministers. You are a minister of such and such a denomination." He pointed up to the balcony and said, "Those four men sitting up there are your friends, and you plotted last night how to trick me. I was going to tell you what was wrong with you, and you were going to deny it." They just turned around and fled the building.

I was with him in South Africa at a time when a large number of religious people rejected the ministry of healing, creating real pressures. There was a man in the meeting who was interested. He was of a denomination that was coming down on us very heavily. On the way home from the meeting, this man felt a hand on the back of his shirt. He turned around and there was no one there. But when he got home, he took off his shirt and found a handprint there�just as if a hot iron had left its imprint on his shirt. The shirt was shown in the next day's newspaper.

Once in Des Moines, Iowa, a missionary from the South Seas who had just flown home because of a very serious ailment was standing in front of him. Branham started out by saying, "Oh, you're a missionary. You just flew in today," and then he named the place the man had come from. At that, the entire crowd went into jubilation.

Question: Had Branham had any contact with any of the earlier men, like Smith Wigglesworth or the Jeffreys? Would that have been the inspiration for his ministry?

Answer: I was very careful to check that out at the time. Branham had no direct link with Pentecostalism in terms of his gift. In his home there had been no deep spiritual life, but he told me stories that indicated this gift was with him as a child. (He made some very significant prophecies, for instance, concerning the collapse of a bridge in his area of [the] Ohio [River in Kentucky]). He once said to me, "If anybody ever writes my biography, you're the only one I've ever told everything to."

pylons on Bridge over Ohio River

[ags: At the age of seven, the Angel of the Lord spoke to Brother Branham from a whirlwind in a bush, "Never drink, smoke, or defile your body in any way; there will be a work for you to do when you get older." Two weeks later he was playing marbles with his little brother when a strange feeling came upon him. Thinking he was ill, he sat down by the side of a tree and looked down on the Ohio River: he saw a great bridge cross the river where there was no bridge, and sixteen men fall from the bridge and drown. He had seen a vision. The municipal bridge was built twenty-two years later and sixteen men perished in its construction. The pylons on the Indiana side of the river are surmounted by a light over an eagle beneath this in bas-relief a man lays the axe to the root of a tree. As John the Baptist foreran Christ's first Coming, Brother Branham's Message introduced His second Coming and called God's people out from the world church system "into the unity of the faith for the manifestation of the Sons of God" and the great translation (Matthew 25:6; Romans 8:19; Ephesians 1:10; 4:13; I Thessalonians 4:16a).

pylon on Bridge over Ohio River

God is Light, in Genesis 18 He veiled Himself behind the flesh of a created Man and proved He was the Word by "discerning the thoughts and intents of Abraham and Sarah's hearts" (Hebrews 4:12). In Gospel days He veiled Himself behind the virgin-born flesh of Jesus and proved by the same sign that He was the Word, and in this Sodom age He was veiled behind the flesh of William Branham a sinner-saved-by-grace, and revealed the Son of man, "Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday and today and forever" by the same sign "as it was in the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28-30). The eagle signifies the Living Creature that called Christ's end-time Bride to see the revelation of the Fourth and final Seal of Redemption in 1963 (Revelation 6:7-8) after the close of the Laodicean Church Age (1906-1963). The eagle also types God's prophets. Brother Branham was anointed with the same Spirit that endued Elijah, Elisha, and John the Baptist who laid the axe to the false spiritual principles as did his successor (Amos 3:7; Malachi 4:5, 6b; Matthew 17:11; Revelation 1:3; 10:7; 18:4)].

He and I had many sessions that were hours long. During one of these, he told me he didn't believe that tongues was the evidence of the baptism. So I asked him about speaking in tongues, and he said that he had gone to a Pentecostal mission and had told God, "These are apparently the only people that will accept my gift�let me talk in tongues so I'll be acceptable." And he said God let him talk in tongues, but he never talked in tongues again. That seemed to be his introduction to the Pentecostals, and they apparently accepted him because of it. Few people would know that story, but I mention it because as his gift became more apparent as he grew older, he saw that the Pentecostal people were probably the only ones who would receive it. [But of course the Pentecostals were following the Message and Spirit of the Laodicean Church Age (1906 � 1965) whereas the other denominations were impersonating the Message of Philadelphia and Sardis Church Ages which were fulfilled decades and centuries before (I John 1:7)].

He was a relatively illiterate man, and so had not read widely. He was a great hunter. His abilities were in the realm of natural and intuitive abilities, I questioned him about many people. He didn't know Dr. Charles Price, who had had quite a healing ministry back in the 1920's � 30's, or any others whom I mentioned.

I do not see any inspiration for his ministry coming from any of these earlier men, certainly not in the realm of his word of knowledge. Concerning whatever God may have done in the Spirit, I have no knowledge. But in the realm of his word of knowledge, there were no apparent human models he could have patterned himself on. He just seemed to break from a whole new source. He was missionary Baptist, so his tradition would not link him into historic Pentecostalism.

Question: How was he received by the people in the 50's?

Answer: "He was received gladly by the common people" because of the manifestation of God in his ministry. But to most ministers he was an enigma from the very beginning. First of all, he was theologically, as well as academically, illiterate. When he would speak. his English grammar was bad, and his theology worse. A lot of ministers gnashed their teeth and wrung their hands when he preached. One of the reasons I joined him was to try to articulate and provide an apologetic for his ministry.

Question: What were some of the personal experiences that you had with him as his friend and companion in ministry?

Answer: We had a great personal friendship. We hunted together and walked a great deal. Branham was a very simple man. He had maintained and checked the lines for the power company in his area and walking in the outdoors was his life. So we walked and talked together. We were real friends.

Question: Who were some of the other men with whom you had contact at the same time as your time with Branham? What were some of the things God was doing and saying through them at that general period?

Answer: This is an important question. Before Branham came on the scene, I was finding that there was a group of men that were sensitive to a need for more of God experientially. The Pentecostal churches were opting for religious education and music. The supernatural, as I've already said, seemed to be absent. In the forties, I was bumping into certain men�men like Rufus Moseley and others who were opening supernatural horizons yet in their traditional Christian forms.

Rufus Moseley had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He wrote the books Manifest Victory and Perfect Everything. Rufus Jones was a unique person. E. Stanley Jones, of course, was very controversial, but to my mind he was a man who knew and loved God. In my view with his preaching and writing he made a significant contribution. I found these men very refreshing for the pioneering spirit they showed. I was criticized by my fundamentalist friends, both evangelical and Pentecostal, for having anything to do with them. But these men were really significant. They were a type of bridge.

Question: Were other things that these men were involved in laying a ground-work for the present-day charismatic renewal?

Answer: In my judgment there was as much connection between the 'Camps Farthest Out' element and the charismatic as there was between the healing revival and the charismatic. I think the healing movement was a supernatural, prophetic call to the world to say, "God is alive and He's here." Healing in the ministry of our Lord was the introductory act that opened people up to the totality of the Kingdom of God. I believe the healing movement alerted the people, in a very real sense, to the renewal of the supernatural.

Question: What brought about the end of that era of the healing revival and what prompted the decline of William Branham's ministry and others like him?

Answer: Well, the healing movement began with such a spectacular display that the men involved in it faced major unprecedented problems. Men were suddenly ushered into very prominent, eye-catching, supernatural ministries. Many of them couldn't handle it personally. One of the sad aspects of the healing movement is the personal shipwrecks and breakdowns. I think the healing movement began to subside because of the way it was mishandled.

Men could not handle the pressures and personal temptations. In addition a number of extraneous elements came in, such as exaggeration, false reports, misrepresentation. Right at the beginning of the healing movement, I saw this starting to emerge. The healers could not meet together in any meaningful way. They would have a conference together, but it was not meaningful. They began to publish competitive exaggerated statistics on tent size, numbers, results and other things.

At that time Gordon Lindsay, who was still relating to Branham, started the Voice of Healing Magazine. Because I was prominently involved with Branham, I was asked to contribute. I wrote an article out of my conviction and concern entitled, "The Curse of Carnal Comparisons," in which I pointed out that there was a good deal of Corinthianism already in the healing movement. And that if something was not done by the healers to remedy it, this movement would self-destruct.

As a result of that article I was persona non grata from there on as far as the healers were concerned, so I confined myself to Branham. Tragically, as these men violated the principles of plurality, each of them had his turn at the pinnacle of fame, but most of them were easily picked off by the enemy. Satan's aim is good.

I remember in the beginning of the healing movement, simply to report a healing would produce great jubilation and praise from congregations. However, the cynicism became so deep that the people's confidence was diminished. Even to this day, people are affected. People began to circulate healing testimonies which, when they were checked out by reputable journalists and reporters, even those who were friendly to the movement, were found to be false. The percentage of healings that stood up after investigation was embarrassingly low. As a result, disillusionment set in, and the healing movement as it was known in the beginning declined in momentum until today you can't say it really amounts to anything as a movement.

[The scriptural answer is found in II Timothy 4:3-4, Brother Branham's ministry like that of our Lord Jesus increased to its climax, when he "finished the mystery of God" it did not decline! Jesus Christ is the mystery of God revealed, Brother Branham introduced His second or (Gk.) 'parousia' Coming. The revelation of the Seven Seals brought Christ back to earth in W_O_R_D form (Revelation 10:7). Jesus' popularity declined when He revealed His deity by statements such as "Whoever eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal Life; and I will raise him up at the last day." and "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! . . . You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?" The Climax of Jesus' ministry was when He was forsaken even by His disciples, crucified, and resurrected.]

Question: Aren't there still a few "healers" in ministry today?

Answer: That's right. As I watch what's going on, I see that people are still trying to promote the same kind of activity that was so prominent back there. But from my position as one who witnessed the quality, depth and effectiveness of that great wave of the early 50's, this is a far cry from that wave. Yet a new generation of Christians has risen up who know not those days and therefore know nothing better.

Question: What brought William Branham's ministry to a close?

Answer: I believe there's a Bible principle involved. No matter who we are, if we don't relate to the principles of truth, we pay for it. We either fall on it and break in repentance, or it falls on us and breaks us in judgment.

[ags: Neither Brother Dick Leggatt the interviewer, nor Brother Baxter understood that the purpose of Supernatural healings and the multiplication of bread and fishes in the early years of the ministries of Brother Branham and our Lord Jesus, was to arouse consciousness of the Presence of God so that they would have eager listeners when it came time for them to deliver their divine Message. The Lord God instructed His Prophet to "Preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will gather teachers for themselves after their own lusts; and turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables. But you be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of your ministry" (II Timothy 4:2-5). That time came in 1963 with the apostasy prophesied in these Scriptures: Luke 18:8, Romans 11:32, II Thessalonians 2:1-12 and Revelation 3:15-17. The churches all rejected the revelation, which was to reject Christ the Word and crucify Him afresh. Like John the Baptist, Brother Branham's ministry came to a close when his commission was fulfilled: God took his life to ensure believers followed the Message (which is Christ the Word) and not the messenger as in Acts 19:1-5].

The measure of faith Paul talks about in Romans 12 where he says, "to each man is given a measure of faith . . . he that prophesieth, let him prophecy according to the measure of faith," indicates that we all have been given a grace gift. But we must walk within the confines of our gift. For instance, if a miracle worker, who may be used mightily in working miracles, steps over the boundaries of that gift and presumes, to be a teacher when God has not called him to teach, then he is violating the rule of walking within his grace.

Branham saw himself as a teacher of some kind of "in" truth. To me, some of it was quite esoteric. I became aware early in his ministry that there was a mixture. I urged him not to say some things in public. As long as we worked together he refrained. One of the reasons for my leaving him was that he was starting to say some seriously wrong things. When that, coupled with other circumstances, eventually became unbearable, I resigned.

[ags: This is really sad because Revelation 1:20 Jesus states "The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand . . . the seven stars are the angels [or messengers] of the Seven Church Ages . . ." William Branham was under pre-eminence as Jesus Christ's right hand man in the Seventh and last Church Age. He was a prophet: no vindicated prophet can err when speaking in the Name of the Lord because he is God's spokesman. Brother Branham's "teaching" was strange to the ministers because it was THUS SAITH THE LORD, not theological guesswork and tradition learned in seminary but The Revelation of Jesus Christ which had been sealed from the foundation of the world (Daniel 12:4, 9; Revelation 10:4; 13:8; 17:8)].

I think there can be a lesson in this. Branham, as a miracle worker, had a real place. Branham as a teacher was outside of his calling. The fruits of his teaching ministry are not good.

[ags: Brother Baxter did not recognize that William Branham was prophet, "the angel to the Seventh Church Age" and the greatest prophet since Enoch. As Enoch warned of the consummation by water and prophesied God's one provided way of escape, Brother Branham's ministry restored the apostolic faith, finished the mystery of God, "proclaimed the day of vengeance of our God" in Armageddon, the consummation of Fire, and preached the wise virgin into the threefold 'rapture' (Malachi 4:1-3, 5-6b; Matthew 17:11; 25:6; Ephesians 1:4-23; Revelation 4:1-2; 10:7; Isaiah 61:2b).

Church Age Body of Christ

Brother Baxter was a Pentecostal or Laodicean for whom it was not needful as it is essential for us to understand and receive the Scriptural correction that restored the apostolic faith and the Revelation of the Seven Seals. The Laodicean Church Age, redemption and Christ's mediation for the ignorance of the Church Age saints on the fullness of the Word ended in 1963 when Christ claimed the Book of Redemption, loosed its Seven Seals and descended with the little Book open in His left hand (Revelation 4; 5; 6; 10:1-4).

This diagram shows the position of each of the Seven Church Ages in the Body of Christ. The last saint was baptized into the Laodicean or Pentecostal Church Age when it ended in March, 1963. Pentecostals, other denominations and independents are all caught in the breach between the Church Ages and the Caagsone, bound for the Great Tribulation. However, God stood Brother Branham in the breach and revealed the mystery of the Seven Seals which is the mysteries of the UNWRITTEN Seven Thunders of Revelation 10:1-4. His Message is the "shout" of I Thessalonians 4:16 which is the "midnight cry" of Matthew 25:6. It is still calling for that last "wise virgin" and is God's one provided revelation that will baptize one into Christ the Caagsone and the 'rapture'].

Question: What do you think is one of the main things that we can learn from the healing revival and the ministry of Branham and others?

Answer: That's an excellent question. I think we need to learn out of it the absolutely mandatory nature of the principle of plurality. No man, no matter how gifted, can afford to violate plurality and walk alone.

Number two, I would say it points up the great necessity of staying in your calling or gift, and not making use of whatever accrues to you from that gift to get into other areas.

I think it also points up the need of having responsible community to receive the fruits of this kind of evangelistic ministry. If the converts are not brought into a New Testament biblical community or church, they become followers of a man who cannot develop them into maturity.

I believe these principles are very basic. In addition, man does not live by miracles alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Miracles and signs and wonders are not food. They are signs to tell you where the food is. If you try to live on the signs, you get unbalanced nutrition.

[ags: If only they could have recognized this significance].

Question: By your definition has the charismatic movement learned some of those things from the healing revival and is it thus prepared for the next step? Or, do you think we still have a long way to go?

Answer: I think the charismatic renewal is an advance on the healing movement. But I see in the charismatic renewal a tendency to fall back into the same philosophy of the healers and not make use of what God has given supernaturally to launch out into His purposes. I believe God is saying that we have to incorporate the supernatural into the normal life of the supernatural community. I believe that the healing revival touched men personally in their bodies. I believe that the charismatic renewal was a real quickening in the realm of the spirit.

In the healing revivals quite a few received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but healing was the feature. In the charismatic renewal, the baptism in the Spirit is a feature. Healings were to attract attention. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was to empower and initiate into a dimension of supernaturalism. Now we have to find the intention of God for the corporate. God intends to equip a people corporately. So I think our next step is for maturity and the corporate expression of Christ to the world.

[ags: These men don't understand that the charismatic movement is a Judaeo-Roman Catholic impersonation of the Pentecostal revival which began the Laodicean Church Age that ended in 1963. Fifteen years after the seventh and last Church Age ended these men cannot recognize what St. Peter called "the present Truth" (II Peter 1:12; I John 1:7). Jesus prophesied that the Pentecostals or Laodiceans, being apostate and knowing it not would put Christ out of the Church that bears His Name (Revelation 3:17-20). Good men, but "blind leaders of the blind"].

Question: Through your years with the healing revival, and then with the charismatic renewal, do you see God's people moving toward that end?

Answer: Yes, I do. While the renewal has a lot of problems that are more interpersonal than having to do with truth, the emphasis on the Body of Christ, unity and maturity is present. It is prominent. It is being spoken. You are hearing a great deal about the need for unity. I think people are recognizing that you can have all of the charismatic gifts�healing and tongues and prophecy�but that there will be no real impact on the world�quite apart from not really getting our own lives together�until we can do something about our divisions and can come into a mature unity.

Question: Is there anything else you would like to say in summary that we haven't touched on?

Answer: Well, I think we have to recognize that God's servants and God's people, when they are healthy, have always been prophetic. They have always been stating and asserting and affirming God's purpose in the earth. Charismatics today need to realize that God has visited us for more than just a personal experience. What God has done has a corporate dimension. He did not just touch one or two in isolation. He has touched men and women all over the world. His prophetic purpose is to bring together in one all things in Christ. (See Ephesians 1:10).

If we, as a people, don't hold that position, we'll have to go through the same judgmental processes that have been experienced by rebellious people for centuries. Israel came up to times of awareness of their prophetic place in the earth, and they missed it. The Church has done it from time to time. Now, I think the charismatic movement is in serious danger of ebbing again, and God is going to have to do something else. But the something else will always be moving toward the Lord's intention as expressed in John 17:21�that we may be one, so that the world might believe that Jesus is the Son of God. nl1087.htm

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Brother Grigor-Scott is a non-denominational minister who has ministered full-time since 1981, primarily to other ministers and their congregations overseas. He pastors Bible Believers' tiny congregation, and is available to teach in your church.

Bible Believers' Church
Gunnedah NSW
Australia 2380

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